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"jkm7680" (jkm7680) 05/22/2018 at 15:37 • Filed to: None

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fu go away

sony1492 > jkm7680 05/22/2018 at 15:57

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You were kinja’d pretty aggressively.

OPPOsaurus WRX > jkm7680 05/22/2018 at 15:57

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i always viewed people who that flag as someone saying ‘hey look at me, I’m a dumb redneck’

Ash78, voting early and often > jkm7680 05/22/2018 at 16:00

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Ditto. I’ve gone from “meh” on the issue to “absolutely not.” As symbology becomes co-opted over time by the evil, there comes a time where you just can’t be associated with that anymore, even if it’s unfair.

I was never much a fan of the battle flag, either, because it seems to glorify the unfortunate violence from the conflict. Sometimes you’ll see the stars and bars, which I find more tasteful.

Or just nothing at all...akin to R E Lee on Cofederate monuments in 1866:

“ As regards the erection of such a monument as is contemplated, my conviction is, that however grateful it would be to the feelings of the South, the attempt in the present condition of the country would have the effect of retarding, instead of accelerating its accomplishment, and of continuing, if not adding to, the difficulties under which the Southern people labour,”

Or from The Bible, on respecting that which might offend your fellow man (Romans 13:14)

Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.

His Stigness > jkm7680 05/22/2018 at 16:00

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I just don’t know why, outside of the south, you’d want to broadcast your heritage of defending slavery.

But to each their own I guess.

MarquetteLa > jkm7680 05/22/2018 at 16:01

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I lived in Louisiana for 14 years and throughout the south for the vast majority of my life. I see no reason why people should be proud of a group of traitors who would go to war with their fellow citizens over owning other people as property.

I get it, for many people in the south those people were their ancestors. But it doesn’t mean you should be proud of what they did solely based on the fact that they begot you.

jkm7680 > sony1492 05/22/2018 at 16:03

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Me and Kinja just haven’t been getting along this week.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > jkm7680 05/22/2018 at 16:03

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I don’t get the “it’s heritage” argument to flying the flag...sure it part of their history, but it’s not something to wave around proudly. Look at Germany, no one flies Nazi flags there, hell there are laws against displaying Nazi symbolism. The Confederates were traitors who rebelled against America for all the wrong reasons, yet they want to celebrate that? I get that it’s probably not easy to look at your ancestors and basically say, “Yea, they were not good people” but that’s what needs to happen. Celebrating the Confederacy is something that needs to stop.

jkm7680 > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 05/22/2018 at 16:05

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Nazis are a completely different thing.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > jkm7680 05/22/2018 at 16:07

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They both perpetuated terrible practices based on race...the Nazis took it a step further, but I’d argue they aren’t that dissimilar.

Little Black Coupe Turned Silver > jkm7680 05/22/2018 at 16:08

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My neighbor is a southern transplant who puts both a Confederate flag and American flag on his pickup for all the “let’s fly a flag!” type holidays. I give him a lot of sideeye.

jkm7680 > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 05/22/2018 at 16:09

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Not gonna get into it with you, but they’re very much so unrelated.

Gerry197 > jkm7680 05/22/2018 at 16:12

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Confused, what is it about that Superduty pic am I missing?

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > jkm7680 05/22/2018 at 16:12

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You asked for a civil debate, I don’t think anything I’ve said has been anything but. I’d like to know why you think they are very much unrelated.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > jkm7680 05/22/2018 at 16:14

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A fair point

jkm7680 > Gerry197 05/22/2018 at 16:17

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That is what the jump is after

sony1492 > jkm7680 05/22/2018 at 16:18

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In Rural Ca there was a particular classmate growing up that tried to defend the heritage thing pretty regularly. She tried to say it signified redneck pride and freedom, but she had never been to, or seen the South. Just grew up in the woods and identified with conservative southern principles.

Oddly enough students that identified with the redneck thing also developed a bit of drawl to their speech.

DipodomysDeserti > jkm7680 05/22/2018 at 16:19

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Why is a Southerner allowed to use the ”heritage not hate” argument while a German is not? Afterall, Southern states continued to subjugate blacks long afyer the Civil War ended whereas Germany put an immediate stop to the persecution of Jews/gypsies/slavs/disabled people following their defeat. The South also subjugated blacks for a whole lot longer than the Nazi reign of terror.

I think you’re reasoning for not flying that flag is a good one, so I’m interested in your reasoning as to why it should be tolerated at all.

Klaus Schmoll > jkm7680 05/22/2018 at 16:21

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“They do that for what they say is their heritage.” The Fuck no!!

I’m German, I know that my grandparents had to fight on the wrong side in WW2. Does that make me proud? No! Do I want to fly a Reichskriegsflagge because of that? No! And even if I did, that shit is illegal over here, and for good reasons.

Comparing any regime/system/government with flaws to the Nazis is complicated and often wrong. The Germans even have a word for it, the “Nazikeule” or Nazi club. Somebody says something dumb about immigrants, call them a Nazi, job done.

Still, I think that there are similarities between the confederate and the Nazi flags. They both are symbols of dark times in our past we should fight to never repeat.

jkm7680 > DipodomysDeserti 05/22/2018 at 16:30

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I think the gap in age between the Civil War and present time has removed some of the connotations that it possibly would have had and kinda faded out into something else over time. I’ve also been around that flag my entire life, so I don’t really associate it with hate in that context. I’ve seen African Americans flying confederate flags before and I don’t think the symbolic relationship is necessarily still a thing. Mississippi has the highest African American population in the United States (besides DC IIRC) and they still have a confederate flag in their state flag and from living there, not that many people care about that because they’re used to it and don’t see it as a symbol of hate.

If I saw someone flying a Nazi flag while driving, I’d probably flip them off.

Robot Face > OPPOsaurus WRX 05/22/2018 at 16:31

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A needy, attention-seeking dumb redneck.

fintail > sony1492 05/22/2018 at 16:40

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I’ve seen this exact thing, accents included, in rural parts of WA and OR as well.

Galileo Humpkins (aka MC Clap Yo Handz) > jkm7680 05/22/2018 at 16:48

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I was born and raised in Alabama. All my life, whenever I see someone displaying that flag, my only thoughts are, “They must be racist rednecks. They should not be so proud.” I simply don’t buy into the heritage bullshit, no matter how thick their ‘heritage’ veil is, it’s racism (or at the very least, the respect and appreciation of their racist past).

I’ve seen a few people here in Chicago, and surrounding areas, flying the flag and am always very confused by it when I see it here. I just assume they moved from somewhere else where it’s more common, and lack common sense.

sony1492 > fintail 05/22/2018 at 16:49

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Starts chewing, wearing camo hats with an intense bend to the brim, work boots everywhere always, carhartt jeans.

Mercedes Streeter > jkm7680 05/22/2018 at 17:25

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There are so many Confederate and Nazi flags flying in the town I moved to (near the IL/WI border) that if you saw a pic and thought it was the south, I’d probably agree with you. Heck, there is literally a Nazi meet up like every week in the parking lot of an abandoned business.

I just...I can’t.

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > jkm7680 05/22/2018 at 17:25

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My point is, flying a confederate flag like this in a northern state makes you look like an ignorant racist because at that point you have little to no reason to want to fly one.

absolutely this, i see the battle flag all over northern Illinois and everyone who flys it says its heritage. and my two responses are 1) Illinois fought, AND WON, as part of the Union. and 2) Im a decedent of german WW1 and 2 veterans and you dont see me flying a nazi flag or iron cross off the back of my truck. they may say its “their heritage” but history is written by the victors and the victors say youre racist af for flying it

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > jkm7680 05/22/2018 at 17:27

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not really no. both the nazis and the confederacy saught to oppress millions of people, its why most neo-nazis here in america also fly the confederate battle flags next to their swastikas

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > jkm7680 05/22/2018 at 17:29

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yeah and here in the north im sure a lot of people who fly the confederate battle flag get flipped off for the same reason youd flip off someone with a nazi flag

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > fintail 05/22/2018 at 17:29

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Illinois “rednecks” get it too

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > Galileo Humpkins (aka MC Clap Yo Handz) 05/22/2018 at 17:35

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most likely they moved from downstate or even the far southern suburbs, i grew up in plainfield, which is about 40 miles southwest and if you go any further south or west in illinois “redneck culture” and the stars and bars becomes even more apparent. and they started popping up even more frequently in the late 90s and early 2000s when plainfield saw a large influx of black and latino families moving to get away from the rising violence of chicago

nermal > jkm7680 05/22/2018 at 17:43

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I’ve heard the Confederate flag referred to as the “rebel flag.” With that line of thought, it’s a symbol of rebellion, not a symbol of racism. Based on that, I see no difference in having a “rebel flag” on your truck than a pissing Calvin or a NO FEAR sticker or a SLUT LIFE sticker.

See: NASCAR races, Lynyrd Skynyrd concerts, Pantera concerts, etc.

The problem is that the flag has taken on an alternate meaning over time. Hate groups have taken it on as a symbol associated with their hateful views, and the permanently offended have taken anybody showing it (regardless of intent) to be associated with the hate groups and their views.

aquila121 > jkm7680 05/22/2018 at 18:34

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When you start seeing the Confederate flag flown by actual Neo-Nazis in recent rallies by groups which are objectively racist, deplorable, and hateful—I think it’s time to seriously reconsider if the negative connotations of that Confederate flag have “faded out into something else over time.”Even if it didn’t categorically represent a historical population that chose to secede over the issue of continuing to own slaves—if I could give the benefit of the doubt and say that it originated with a sort of “pride in one’s heritage” as you’ve presented it be interpreted currently, that symbol has now been largely associated with hatred, bigotry, and racism due to the actions of a not-insignificant and very vocal/violent population. It’s to the point where a casual observer can’t necessarily glean the interpretation of a single proponent waving or displaying that flag; “Do they believe slavery was right and worth fighting a Civil War over it, or are they just saying ‘I’m a proud Southerner’?”

At this point, because of the former (despicable) view, I believe those clinging to the flag as a symbol of the latter would do better to let it go. I wouldn’t want even the possibility of being mistakenly associated with Neo-Nazis and racists, full stop. To simplify, I *do* view it as very much similar to post-Nazi Germany and swastikas. We have people who will flat-out deny that the Civil War was fought over the issue of slavery. If we can’t get consensus on that horrible aspect of our history, I don’t want to rationalize, downplay, or water-down anything else about the evils of that period. We have enough collective ignorance (willful or otherwise) as it is. 

fintail > sony1492 05/22/2018 at 18:34

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To a tee, that’s what I have seen out here, too.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > jkm7680 05/22/2018 at 18:37

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What befuddles me most is that isn’t even the CSA flag. If you’re gonna be proud of your “heritage,” you had better be from there and fly the flag that was actually used to represent the South. Oh, but it’s overtly traitorous? Well, then!!!

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > jkm7680 05/22/2018 at 21:16

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“heritage not hate”

maybe before Charlottesville

2015?

hmm maybe further back to the 50's? nope

maybe the 1920s?

The symbolism of the flag is pretty clear, and it isn’t kumbayah.

DipodomysDeserti > jkm7680 05/23/2018 at 01:59

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I agree with your analysis. The real issue is that white supremacy wasn’t just a Southern issue, hence the North allowing those shitbags to live and for racists to continue to suppress African Americans. If we had hunted down and executed white supremacists, as we did Nazis, back in the 19th century, we wouldn’t have to deal with their legacy today.

The real difference between Nazis and American white supremacists isn’t in their respective ideologies, but in their respective societies. While antebellum America continued to accept white supremacy, post war Germany chose to reject the tenets of Nazism. Thus, Nazi symbols are seen as completely unacceptable, whereas Confederate symbols are still tolerated throughout the South (for now).

jkm7680 > DipodomysDeserti 05/23/2018 at 10:14

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White supremacy always will be a countrywide issue for us, and it’s unfortunate that it still exists. That people live their lives thinking one race is superior to another and are so comfortable living that way while expressing their views.